And you’re ignoring that fact that Richard went before London and said he neither poisoned his wife or planning on marrying EOY, something that was completely unprecedented. Here on the marriage of Richard and Anne deteriorating after the death of Edward of Middleham. Why did their uncle Richard III inherit the throne instead of their sister Elizabeth of York? Here is another video on The White Queen and The White Princess. Wasn't she next in line? Edward mentioned the possibility of a marriage Elizabeth’s younger sister Cecily. I think over all Elizabeth’s feelings on her uncle would have been mixed at best, I don’t think I can stress enough how much she hardly would have known the man. Elizabeth of York has been blamed by some writers for giving fuel to the rumours, speculating that she was in love with her uncle, a ludicrously misogynistic take on the matter. I wonder. That still doesn’t mean she wasn’t fearful of him, or upset by his actions. Elizabeth of York was born at the Palace of Westminster as the eldest child of King Edward IV and his wife, Elizabeth Woodville. in the cause of… However it seems uncle and niece were on good terms while she was at court, good enough that he sent her a gift of two books. As beginners, we welcome any useful advice ! To be able to become king, the Duke of Gloucester, the uncle of the children and of Elizabeth, had them killed. Richard’s advisers would have been against such a marriage because they would not wanted to see Elizabeth with her Woodville blood restored to power. In the eyes of the court, according to Croyland, he was publicly displaying his niece as equal in rank to his Queen. The letter is no proof that Elizabeth of York was longing to marry her uncle. elizabeth of york. John was in his late teens early 20s, he had supported Richard from the start of April of 1483, and he also had many other brothers to take his place. Did I mention that Elizabeth of York’s brothers (the heir to the throne) had gone mysteriously missing while under the guardianship of him? Fortune had turned against Elizabeth several times before, she was raised in an environment where one must learn to adapt and survive. sowie der zukünftigen Königin von Schottl… I mean I can try to guess at least why some people could speculate about the books, as they could not understand why she, having mixed feelings for this person at best, as you said, still wanted to remember who the book belonged to first before her. There is no real evidence of either Elizabeth or Richard’s actual feelings for each other. Also it wouldn’t have been Ratcliffe and Catesbury who be telling Richard he couldn’t marry EOY, they were both low born nobility, if anyone would have it would have been John Howard, Duke of Norfolk and Sir Francis Lovell. If Richard wanted to thwart a marriage between Elizabeth of York and Henry Tudor, all he had to do was marry her off to anyone else. Historians have long debated the authenticity of the letter and of Buck’s credentials. You also make Elizabeth still think Richard would marry her even after he publicly denied her. So what? What he didn’t want was Henry Tudor/Elizabeth of York marriage, suspect if she really were a proven bastard princess, as he tried to make so legally binding. He may have objected to “open adultery”, however, I don’t believe there is any historical documentation that speaks to his either loving his wife, or being a chaste faithful husband all his married life. It is doubtful. There has been some speculation that in this bargain, Elizabeth Woodville agreed to a marriage between Elizabeth of York and Richard III. Did I mention that Richard III is her uncle who had declared his brother’s marriage to Elizabeth Woodville invalid and made all their children (including Elizabeth of York) bastards? How serious this was is unclear, Edward was on a social visit on his way back to England, and not an embassy. After the disappearance of her two sons, Edward and Richard of Shrewsbury, her eldest daughter Elizabeth of York was considered by some as the rightful heir to the throne, and was becoming a focus for rebellion. Even her mother who was considered “common” was of higher rank than Elizabeth at this point, with Richard affording her the title “Dame Grey” from her first marriage. It is more likely that Queen Anne was simply being kind to her niece. ge who (as she wrote) was her onely joy and maker in… Elizabeth of York immortalised as Queen of Hearts? I think she had justification after all that to have mixed feelings on the man. Later in March Elizabeth of York went to court and joined Queen Anne’s household, where her famed beauty was reportedly attracting a great deal of attention. Elizabeth had left sanctuary in March of 1484 and was at court soon after. I think that became more apparent to her as Richards reign was coming to it’s end, her mother certainly knew it. And to be honest I’m rather sick of the focus on Richard III and Elizabeth of York. Alison Weir does acknowledge this in her later book “Elizabeth of York”, in which she discredit this rumor. They were still considered betrothed when Elizabeth of York was sent to court under her uncle’s guardianship. Croyland discusses the anticipated death of Queen Anne, alluding that Richard had discussed divorce prior to Anne becoming seriously ill. He even “Showed his grief” during this speech. Significantly, he did not. In the first book, Elizabeth wrote her motto-“Without Changing” under Richard’s signature. Look throughout recent history. It was rumoured that Richard III intended to marry Elizabeth of York because his Elizabeth of York did not exercise much political influence as queen due to . Polydore Vergil said that Richard was complaining to a number of courtiers that Anne could no longer give him an heir. I think it’s not that strange since it’s not the first time when something related to famous historical person raises all kinds of speculations, especially when we are dealing with something related to Richard III. I, therefore, think that the letter citing Elizabeth’s impatience with how long it was taking for Anne to die accurately reflects Elizabeth’s sentiments. Many of his subjects at the time certainly didn’t, given his infamous rise to power. It is likely that the idea of the marriage had been discussed, whether rumour or fact. An AU where King Richard III wins at Bosworth and kills Henry Tudor, Elizabeth of York’s betrothed and, thanks to the letters they shared, her one and only true love. Henry VIIs queen lies buried beside him in Westminster Abbey in a magnificent marble tomb provided by their son, Henry VIII. In fact the marriages of Manuel and Joanna probably would have reconnected the English to the Portuguese. Joanna would have been an extremely suitable bride. Some modern historians even claim that Elizabeth was deliberately trying to outshine the Queen, an act of antipathy from a teenage girl in love with her uncle. Richard could have stopped all the speculation by arranging honorable marriages for his brothers’ daughters or placing them in convents.. Was there a romance between Richard III and Elizabeth of York? Buck’s work was largely based on the original manuscript of the Chronicle and is an extremely important early history. Doctor Who Moffat Era: Adrienne’s Top Five, Why Doctor Who May No Longer Be A Story Of Remarkable Women, Doctor Who: The TARDIS Console Room History in Pictures, Jane Seymour projected the persona people demanded of her: An interview with Adrienne Dillard, We Talk The Last Kingdom With Alexander Dreymon, In the Footsteps of the Six Wives of Henry VIII with Natalie Grueninger and Sarah Morris, The Maligned Lady Rochford – An Interview and Cover Reveal with Adrienne Dillard, Scandalous Liaisons : Charles II and His Court with R.E. In the end Elizabeth would have had little choice in the matter of her marriage, as her guardian, the decision would be made by Richard. Elizabeth of York was the eldest child of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville.She was born a favoured princess in a glamorous, if insecure, court. That’s my guess. Not all people can be that kind or comprehend such good quality. For all we know Elizabeth just did it random on a whim when she got the book, maybe she was grateful that Richard gave it too her. In Philippa Gregory’s The Cousins’ War series, Elizabeth of York falls in love with King Richard III while she is serving as a lady in waiting for Queen Anne Neville. Unfortunately the original letter failed to survive and his account cannot be validated. It seemed extraordinary that out of all men, Elizabeth would fall for someone who had ousted her family out of their rightful place. The ships were sent to Portugal I believe 5 days after Anne’s death. Elizabeth was young, beautiful and most importantly, her mother and grandmother had excellent childbearing records. Something that you find quite usual, other people would find not that usual or even unusual and interesting and would talk about it. George had betrayed both his brothers in Warwick’s rebellion and then again him and Richard fought. Did Richard III want to marry his niece Elizabeth of York? Also Richard had an heir in 1485, John de la Pole who was his nephew from his sister Elizabeth. Elizabeth could have been the possible focus for rebellion. Before claiming that a historical document(letter) is made up, there should be evidence of it falsity. ( Log Out /  Also EOY is sent from court after Queen Anne’s death, meaning she was probably closer to Queen Anne then Richard, given that as a lady to the Queen she would have spent most of her time with Anne. Moreover there is no evidence that Richard himself was particularly attached to the idea. Queen Victoria had 4 sons, Elizabeth II had 3 sons, and Prince Charles and Lady Diana had 2 sons. On the book, we simply cannot know what that was about. King Ferdinand II married his aunt Joanna of Naples but that was not until 1496, more than a decade later and under Pope Alexander VI.”. I must try to read Baldwin’s EW book – I’ve seen it in the shops and flicked through it. Also I want to address this idea that Richard had a weak claim in 1485/1484. One could consider Richard was publicly displaying his niece as equal in rank to his Queen. Also the “over dozen doctors of theology” would be insane for 1485. When I first spoke to David Baldwin about it I was convinced there was no truth to the rumours but he seems to think differently and I respect his opinions. The obvious problem was the blood relation. There are two George Bucks. watch in 1080 or 720 HD~ Disclaimer: I do not own anything in this video. The first George Buck was an antiquarian who served King James I as his master of Revels. So while we can’t ever know feelings, I highly doubt Richard III considered the marriage to his niece. Her christening was celebrated at Westminster Abbey, sponsored by her grandmothers, Jacquetta of Luxembourg, Duchess of Bedford, and Cecily Neville, Duchess of York. Richard is still sleeping with Anne until Doctors order him out of her bed in January of 1485. It is unclear exactly when the rumours about Richard and Elizabeth began, but they were certainly reaching their peak by Christmas of 1484. However, Tristan has to marry Iseult to someone else, they have no choice, but tell each other their love lasts. One of the most turbulent periods in English history was the Wars of the Roses and the conflicts between different royal dynasties. What would have been the political gain and what would have been the political costs of such a thing as an uncle-niece marriage? Yet it is far more sinister to depict uncle and niece of having indeed been in love, and worse, having had a sexual relationship. All the while we know Henry was trying to use every trick he could to get the annulment. The relationship between Elizabeth of York and her uncle King Richard III has long been debated. It’s very likely she got it after his death in my opinion when his possessions would have been scattered. They seemed to be in the same residence and Richard did have to publiclly state the reason for why he no longer shared her bed. People saw them talking, maybe spending time together and the rumours were born. Of course it cannot be ruled out that either Elizabeth was using contraception, or that Richard’s fertility can be questioned – it had been many years since he fathered a child – but this is leading into fairly ridiculous territory. This text is reproduced from the manuscript held in the British Library (Egerton 2216): But when the midst, and last of ffebruary was past, the Lady Elizabeth (beinge more impatient and suspitious of ye successe, then every one knewe, or conceived ) wrote a letter to the Duke of Norffe: Intimateinge first therein, that hee was the man, in whome shee most affyed, and that she had reason soe to doe, knowinge the King her fathr much loved hym, and that hee had been a very faith=full servant vnto hym, and to the Kinge his brother, then raigninge, and serviceable to all king Edwa: Children; then shee congratu=lates, his many courtesyes, and friend=ly offices, in continuance of which, shee desires hym, to bee a mediator to [hym]\the king/ for her, in the behalfe of the marriage propounded betweene them, whoe (as shee wrote) was her onely ioye, and maker in this world, and that shee was his \in/ hart, in, thought, in body, and in all; insinua=tinge, that the best part of ffebr: was past, and that shee feared the Queene would never dye;”9. The negotiations came to a sudden halt with the news of the Battle of Bosworth. And I was dying to know if Richard did flaunted their courtship in order to weaken her family’s alliance with the House of Lancaster who were continuous threat to his throne. I was not the only historian to interpret them as referring to a sexual relationship. Maybe it was just a habit Elizabeth picked up because she saw her other relatives do it alot. Also that account that claims Richard had to be “convinced” not to marry her is full of crap, there’s no way in the middle ages you’re getting 12 doctors of divinity together at one place in such a short period of time. Richard III (1452–85) was the last Yorkist king of England, whose death at the battle of Bosworth in 1485 signified the end of the Wars of the Roses and marked the start of the Tudor age. Kincaid, from B.L. and then she prayed him to be a mediator for her to the K… If you knew this history then you know Tristan is forced to kill Iseult’s maternal uncle in a power struggle the uncle started but in which they both see themselves as justified. But it is not evidence, as some have speculated, that she was in love with her uncle. the white queen. The fact that these two men are left out of the account on the “forced denial” is extremely odd. It’s my personal opinion it may have been entertained at some point and then dropped. It is also worth bearing in mind that Richard opened negotiations for himself to be marry Joanna, the sister of the King of Portugla, and Elizabeth to marry Joanna’s cousin, Duke of Beja. When the Yorks were in power during the War of Roses...the rightful heirs to the throne disappeared in the Tower of London. 266V-267, Bodleian MS Malone 1 ff. If Edward IV could make a knight’s widow his queen, Richard III probably thought he could also make Elizabebeth of York a queen. Everything belongs to their respective owners. Buck claims to have seen it in the private collection of the Earl of Arundel and reproduced the text. Were talking about an era where it took weeks to travel safely. Although we can date Henry Tudor’s “dark prince” back to Francis Bacon, he certainly never accused Elizabeth of pining for her dead lover while trapped in a marriage with the man who defeated him and shattered her dreams. Her third sponsor was her cousin Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick. Her research interests include medieval and early modern history, folklore and fairy tales. I have heard that theory before, that Richard was involved in the rumours being spread but but I am not convinced by it either. King Ferdinand II married his aunt Joanna of Naples but that was not until 1496, more than a decade later and under Pope Alexander VI. The privy council would have to know that. Phillipa Gregory has her PhD in British history, folks don’t give her due. He was afraid she would try to influence him the way her mother had exerted her will on her father. But at the end of that month tragedy struck, Richard and Anne lost their only son, Edward Prince of Wales. However, I don’t believe there was a romantic relationship between Elizabeth of York and Richard III. Soon after their re-entry into Richard III’s court, Elizabeth of York’s mother started scheming to marry her to Henry Tudor, a contender for the throne. I should also say that Elizabeth has another book where she writes her name under or near (I can’t remember) an E. Woodville, who very much could have been Edward Woodville her uncle since Elizabeth Woodville probably wouldn’t have used Woodville to sign her name (Unless it was signed before her marriage to John Grey). Henry Tudor felt he had to keep her in her place. The parallel here is clear. Richard lost his wife due to probably from the plague or some unknown sickness not to mention the lost of her son who was reported by several written accounts as being sickly or weak. But I would assume that a marriage between them would have been discussed some time before Christmas, which was well before the negotiations with Portugal started. Prince Arthur was born eight months after the wedding, either he was premature, or Henry and Elizabeth decided to start trying to conceive just before the wedding. With regard to David Baldwyn’s theories, after having read his The Lost Prince, and seeing how he threads together extremely tenuous flakes of information to make something entirely different (and straining one’s credulity in the process) I am not sure I would believe him about Richard’s and Elizabeth’s relationships. Ratcliffe and Catesby were said to have brought Richard proof in the form of several priests that the Pope would never sanction the marriage. We don’t know if Richard gave the book to her. Anyone would realize after that moment he never could have even if he wanted to. Why did this cause such a scandal? There certainly was no need to poison an already fatally ill wife. Elizabeth of York was given two books by her uncle, Richard III-Tristan and Iseult and Boethius Consolatio Philosophiae. The dead queens coffin, draped in black velvet on an open car, was drawn to Westminster by six … So to me I very much disagree with Licence speculation that there marriage fell apart after the death of Prince Edward. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” But historian A.N. Public images for Kings were everything, I just very much doubt the idea that Richard ever was publiclly cruel to Anne or made comments about her in such a fashion. It is extremely unlikely Richard III would risk his somewhat tenuous position and his own reputation to have extra-marital sex with his own niece, or that he would have risked ruining her reputation. She is currently writing her Honours thesis on Shakespeare's Richard III. Twelve doctors of divinity were also summoned by Parliament to put forward their objections and Richard then publicly denied the accusation. added by vici-mercedes. Also we know Elizabeth was an extremely kind woman, so maybe she forgive him in death for all the things he had done to her and her family. I am sad to say that’s most of my social studies books from school (circa 1978ish) are full of non truths) Like the midnight ride of Paul Revere, Chris Colombus discovered America, George Washington never told a lie…. Etc…. EoY was NOT betrothed to Henry Tudor. From my research trudging through resources online, it seems that factual evidences to prove or disprove the speculation is too scarce to draw any assertive conclusion on Richard’s feeling for his niece. It could be she wanted to remember who the book belonged to first before her. Or she did still think he was a good King. Kincaid’s 1976 edition of Buck’s History: [[]But when the mid]st and more days of February were gone, [the Lady Eli]zabeth, being very desirous to be married, and growing not only impatient of delays, but also suspicious of the [success,] wrote a letter to Sir John Howard, Duke of Norfolk, intimating first therein that [he was the] one in whom she most [affied,] because she knew the king her father much lov[ed him,] and that he was a very faithful servant unto him and to [the king his brother then reign]ing, and very loving and serviceable to King Edward’s children. If she had any true bond to Richard, it doesn’t make much sense that she would grow to become so close to Henry VII in such a short time period. To give her two of his own books as gifts shows that he must have held her in some esteem. I think with attempting to exonerate Richard from the murder of the Princes historians can get a little creative – which is fine by me But I think his work on Elizabeth Woodville has led him to believe that Richard and Elizabeth would have come to some sort of secret agreement. Richard was then compelled to publicly deny the charges and “in the great hall at St. John’s in the presence of the mayor and citizens of London and in a clear, loud voice carried out fully the advice to make a denial of this kind.”7. I’m not implying it as a definite sign of romance or anything, but still I find it interesting, that she as you say tried to save the books of a person who supposedly killed her two brothers and definitely executed her half-brother and uncle. Her father had taken the throne by force, defeating the supporters of Henry VI, in the thirty years ‘Wars of the Roses’, a later name given to the series of battles between the Houses of York and Lancaster. On the 22nd of March 1485 Sir Edward Brampton went on an embassy to Portugal, but we have no record of the marriage negotiations being entered into on this first visit. …promise and swear on the word of a king, and upon these holy evangelies [Gospels] of God, by me personally touched, that if the daughters of Dame Elizabeth Grey, late calling herself Queen of England, that is, Elizabeth, Cecily, Anne, Katherine, and Bridget, will come unto me out of the sanctuary of Westminster, and be guided, ruled, and demeaned after me, then I shall see that they shall be in surety of their lives, and also not suffer any manner hurt in their body by any manner [of] person or persons to them, or any of them in their bodies and persons by way of ravishment or defouling contrary to their wills, not them or any of them imprison within the Tower of London or other prison; but that I shall put them in honest places of good name and fame, and them honestly and courteously shall see to be founden and entreated, and to have all things requisite and necessary for their exhibitions [display] and findings [domestic arrangements] as my kinswomen… 1. I don’t think there is anything unusual at all about Elizabeth writing her name along with the mottos. And I think Elizabeth of York was fond of her uncle, but no more than that. und wurde die Mutter des zukünftigen englischen Königs Heinrich VIII. Or perhaps it was just another show of solidarity. What King Richard III said about not poisoning his wife or desiring to Mary his niece should not be naïvely taken as truth on face value. The words ‘in body’ had never appeared in previous versions of the letter, so it looked as if they had been censored. I think the closeness of Richard and Elizabeth allowed people to speculate about a possible marriage. Nach dem Sturz ihres Onkels Richard III. We do not know Richard’s feelings about his wife. It makes no sense, especially in the light of the recent discoveries in Portugal regarding the propose marriages mentioned in LauraS’s post above. Look at George Duke of Clarence and Richard III fought over the Neville lands for years, rumors are that Clarence at one point hid Anne Neville away from Richard III. Also the marriage to Joanna had to have been considered prior to Anne’s death, it’s illogically to think otherwise. Due to Tudor propaganda efforts, it was long believed that they were both murdered not long afterward on Richard III's orders; however, the lack of any conclusive proof of their fate has led to alternative scenarios being proposed, for instance that that both boys were murder… It’s highly illogically that over 10 theologians would happen to get to London in time to convince Richard not to do this. Richard may have loved his wife, but political expediency would have made it clear after his son’s death and his wife’s illness that he needed to plan for a second marriage. Although Henry VII had ordered all copies of it destroyed, the chronicler had copied the text and Buck was able to reproduce it. I don’t doubt that Richard and Anne were kind to Edward IV’s daughters at court. If Richard wanted to thwart a marriage between Elizabeth of York and Henry Tudor, all he had to do was marry her off to anyone else. Another point to consider is that the later negotiations never mentioned Elizabeth of York by name. It’s like reading tea leaves will simply never know why Elizabeth chose to write her name under. As for books I think a lot of people find it somehow unusual not only because she wrote her name in them, but because she also wrote his motto in one of them. Never was. I, therefore, think that the letter citing Elizabeth’s impatience with how long it was taking for Anne to die accurately reflects Elizabeth’s sentiments. There were some at that council who knew well enough that the contrary was true.” Sir Richard Ratcliffe and Sir William Catesby “whose wills the king scarcely ever dared to oppose” told Richard “to his face, that if he did not deny any such purpose and did not counter it by public declaration…the northerners, in whom he placed the greatest trust, would all rise against him, charging him with the death of the Queen.”6. ( Log Out /  She probably has more truth in her books than some historians do. He first had to have Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville marriage declared legal before he could marry Elizabeth of York. Avunculate marriage, that is marriage between and uncle and niece or aunt and nephew, was very unusual at the time. The gossip about Elizabeth began probably when the privy council was told Richard had quit Anne’s bed. People don’t seem to want to look at other evidence for what we have with the era. He was wary of her. Nothing in that indicates romantic love to me. Elizabeth of York was packed up and shipped off to Sheriff Hutton. Walking around the Temple of Dawn, Wat Arun: Day 1 in Thailand. The political gain would not have outweighed the costs, in the end. She undoubtedly thought it was better to be a queen than the sister of a king. For example, if I really dislike somebody or hate this person I will never keep things associated with this person in my possession. It could have just been an instant thing for her too do, and once her name was in it nobody would have destroyed that page. The De la Pole boys would later be thorns in the sides to Henry VII for his entire reign. Margaret Beaufort it seems also ended up with a few of Richard’s books and tore his name out of them. Had Richard seriously considered marrying his niece, he would have been considering that she was a focus of rebellion for disaffected Yorkists, that by marrying her he may win their loyalty and keep the threat of rebellion at bay. Elizabeth interest did not lay with Richard but with Henry. The speculation of their incestuous relationship actually dates back a long way – to their very own time. There isn’t that much proof for this. It is Henry VII’s reaction to Elizabeth’s death that is the strongest case to show the depth of affection they shared. Alison Weir told us “I don’t take that view nowadays. I think Richard was a man who needed to be needed. That’s natural human reaction. ― Albert Einstein. Language: English ( Log Out /  She was a woman of great strength as she denied the King of France (The most powerful man in Europe at the time) the chance at her hand because he wasn’t moral enough for him. That Richard III intended to marry his brother’s daughter, Elizabeth of York, is a rumour that we can date back to 1483. During her time in Sanctuary, Elizabeth Woodville had arranged a bethrothal between Margaret Beaufort’s son Henry Tudor and her daughter Elizabeth of York. A true historian as she is, does not need to blacken the Duke of Glousters name, pre-Tudor documentation reveals that he along with the Duke of Buckingham, did the blackening all by themselves.